tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post7742218923798771748..comments2024-03-15T18:58:45.318-06:00Comments on Jerry Garcia's Middle Finger: The April 1975 Legion of Mary TourFate Musichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05648291938690043423noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-12618798191327940142015-07-20T03:34:39.528-06:002015-07-20T03:34:39.528-06:00In a 1994 interview, Merl was asked about synthesi...In a 1994 interview, Merl was asked about synthesizers, and he says "I used John Lennon's Mellotron". In case sraile hasn't heard this tidbit (or can say that it makes no sense, or whatever), I am posting it here.Fate Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05648291938690043423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-1028883033267012552011-12-06T15:10:01.112-07:002011-12-06T15:10:01.112-07:00A big thanks to JGMF for the blog, LIA for coming ...A big thanks to JGMF for the blog, LIA for coming by to lend his insights, and especially to Scott for taking the time to give us such a great answer (and preview of his amazing book)! <br /><br />It would certainly be nice to send this info along to the powers that be at The Jerry Site so we could have this documented there. <br /><br />Again - thanks very much!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-57786335099489127682011-12-06T11:36:08.781-07:002011-12-06T11:36:08.781-07:00Also, let me add that I agree totally (and I suspe...Also, let me add that I agree totally (and I suspect those who write and read around these parts do as well) that what you say about Lennonology could also be said of Jerryology. Folks operate with a set of received truths which reflect what really happened to a greater or lesser degree. The degree can only be assessed by hard work, careful reasoning and, when the time is right, transparent procedures. Bravo to you guys for doing it right!Fate Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05648291938690043423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-76471680904664497962011-12-06T11:21:41.908-07:002011-12-06T11:21:41.908-07:00Well, what a privilege it is to be able to host th...Well, what a privilege it is to be able to host the revelation of that date ... a crossing of some serious threads, there.<br /><br />Scott, thank you for your research and to you and Chip Madinger for agreeing to give us a preview of the fruits of your labors! That is very, very exciting. Congratulations.<br /><br />I can put together a pretty good list of when Martin was around. As far as I can tell, he really settles in by January '74 and is there almost without fail through the end of Legion of Mary (ca. July 6, 1975). But there will be some dates that remain shrouded, and alas I think July 2, 1974 is destined to remain one of those.Fate Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05648291938690043423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-32219726292816764232011-12-06T11:00:43.847-07:002011-12-06T11:00:43.847-07:00This has been a very interesting thread, not least...This has been a very interesting thread, not least because Scott has settled the date definitively. I was very intrigued by the perspective of LIA's quotes, however. Often we have numerous contradictory assertions about meeting Jerry Garcia from different eyewitnesses, yet hear we had Garcia and his band mates as the eyewitnesses with foggy memories.<br /><br />Would that we were always so lucky to have someone like Scott swoop in at the end and resolve all our questions.<br /><br />On another note, how often did Fierro play with Garcia/Saunders between July '73 and Fall '74? Jan 19 '74 is all that comes to mind off the top of my head, and now we have the Bottom Line as well.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-82332152645707882982011-12-06T10:48:46.285-07:002011-12-06T10:48:46.285-07:00Thanks for the kind words, JGMF! My name is Scott ...Thanks for the kind words, JGMF! My name is Scott Raile and, for the past ten years, my friend Chip Madinger and I have been working on the John Lennon book to end all John Lennon books. We've found that there has been very, very, VERY little primary research done on the Beatles over the past 40 years; most everyone who writes a book simply copies what's come before, mistakes and all. Chip and I were determined to not do that, and as such we researched literally everything from scratch. <br /><br />It was mind-boggling how much information we came up with, not only in the category of "I had no idea that's what happened," but also in the category of correcting "facts" that had been accepted for decades. Indeed, we came up with so much information, it can't be contained in one book, but will be spread out over four books, starting (probably) in late 2012. If anyone is interested, please check out our website (lennonology.com) or you can also find our presence on Facebook (again, search for Lennonology).<br /><br />I was primarily involved with what will be the first volume, STRANGE DAYS INDEED, which is a day-by-day chronology of John and Yoko's life from 1968-1980. Since it is in a day-by-day diary format, it was crucial that we nail down as many dates as possible and, as an enormous Deadhead, it was important to me to get the John/Jerry date just right. Like many things, we hit numerous dead-ends for many years, before one thing opened up the floodgates. And so, with Chip's permission, I will reveal here for the first time the REAL date that John met Jerry: Tuesday, November 5, 1974.<br /><br />Our source for this information was an issue of "Cashbox" which featured a photo of John outside the Bottom Line, and which was very explicit about when it was taken. And, like many, many other things in the book, that piece of information connected up to a few other things. In May Pang's book LOVING JOHN (a book that, like so many "I was there" tomes is factually very accurate, but the timeline is very skewed), she mentions that she and John got into a big fight because his photo was published in a "trade publication" that showed him with a lovely woman who was neither Yoko nor May.<br /><br />Sure enough, that description fits the Cashbox photo quite well; a comely lass is indeed hanging on John's arm, and she's no-one we've seen before. And that also provides food for thought for another fact we know: the issue of Cashbox would have been on the stands on Saturday, November 16, 1974, and we know for a fact that John spent the night at the Dakota that night. A result of his fight with May? It seems likely.<br /><br />(And that brings up another point: John and Yoko saw each other a LOT during "the lost weekend." So, the mythology that they were magically reunited at the Elton John concert on November 28 is pure hokum. After all, he spent the night at Yoko's place two weeks before that).<br /><br />So, that's a VERY long way of saying "November 5, 1974." But I want everyone to rest assured that that date is rock-solid and, if you're a John Lennon fan and found that factoid interesting, please check out our book next year; it will be full of hundreds (thousands?) of stories just like this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-90124997836781957792011-12-06T10:18:25.858-07:002011-12-06T10:18:25.858-07:00Well then! The jerrysite states "show without...Well then! The jerrysite states "show without Martin Fierro" for some reason... But there he is, and there goes my theory. (A testimony to inadequate research!) Now I have to say July '74 is the most likely time for the meeting; indeed overwhelmingly likely. <br /><br />If Lennon were to find out Saunders was in town & seek him out, it seems a "Merl Saunders & Friends" billing would catch his eye more than the mysterious "Legion of Mary" name the band went under in '75.<br /><br />Of course, there's always the November '74 run at the Bottom Line, too...Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-53725980457276633292011-12-06T09:48:28.738-07:002011-12-06T09:48:28.738-07:00Heh heh heh. You ol' meanie.
Yep, I can confi...Heh heh heh. You ol' meanie.<br /><br />Yep, I can confirm that that's Martin, all right.<br /><br />:)Fate Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05648291938690043423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-2779566774016197082011-12-06T09:43:56.963-07:002011-12-06T09:43:56.963-07:00http://www.flickr.com/photos/43811327@N00/23092160...http://www.flickr.com/photos/43811327@N00/2309216034/sizes/o/in/photostream/<br /><br /><br />I took this photo at The Bottom Line on 7/2/74, the 2am late show. I still have my ticket stub. Never went to another Bottom Line show. Isn't that Martin Fierro with the hat?Jerry's Brokendown Palacesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-28821613079293272832011-12-05T22:30:41.572-07:002011-12-05T22:30:41.572-07:00(continued...)
Some observations -
Martin Fierr...(continued...) <br /><br />Some observations - <br />Martin Fierro, as far as I know, was not at the Bottom Line shows in July '74. Coupled with Merl's memory of the meeting being in April '75, that makes it pretty certain that 1975 is the true date. <br />I'm not sure how the story got transferred to 1974. But it's interesting that, other than confirming that Lennon spent time in the dressing room after the show, the stories barely correspond at all. <br />Garcia & Saunders agree that Lennon came to thank them for the cover of Imagine - which means that Lennon actually came to see SAUNDERS, since it was on his album, and Lennon may only have been vaguely aware that Garcia had played on it too. (And, in Kahn's telling, Lennon didn't think much of Garcia.)<br />Garcia & Kahn agree that there was a band of Hell's Angels present, but remember Lennon's reaction quite differently. <br />According to Kahn, Lennon wanted to sit in and Garcia said no; according to Garcia, he asked Lennon to sit in and Lennon flaked out. And Kahn's memory of the drunken, belligerent John was (tactfully?) not confirmed by the others. <br /><br />Kahn's Lennon seems to fit 1974 better actually, as John was back with Yoko in 1975...but not necessarily better-behaved! And in summer 1974, John was recording Walls & Bridges, and I think more likely to consider "sitting in" with some club band than in mid-1975 when he'd temporarily 'quit music.' And as far as I know, Lennon was in NYC in July 1974.<br /><br />The discrepancies make it just possible that Lennon dropped in on two occasions. This is a desperate speculation, though, as I think someone would've mentioned if he had met them twice.<br /><br />As a trivia note - the Elephant's Memory band (which had backed Lennon in '72) played along with the Garcia/Saunders band at the Hell's Angels party on the SS Bay Belle in NYC harbor 9/5/73.<br /><br />Also - Peter Coyote tells the bizarre tale of an intersection between the Grateful Dead, the Hell's Angels, and John Lennon in Christmas 1968 - <br />http://www.petercoyote.com/freshair.html (about 3/4 down the page)Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-10668087027161444502011-12-05T22:29:59.596-07:002011-12-05T22:29:59.596-07:00I'll weigh in. I haven't looked in any Len...I'll weigh in. I haven't looked in any Lennon bios though - as a true researcher should - but I think it's likely the true date could be triangulated from that side as well. <br />That aside, I conclude that Lennon most likely did meet the Garcia band during the April '75 run, and possibly on two occasions. <br /><br />I think Blair Jackson's statement that it occurred during the fall '75 Northeastern tour is misleading, one of Blair's rare slips. (And repeated in the Illustrated Trip.) They didn't play the Bottom Line that tour; and indeed, there was no day they could have, as every date on that tour was filled with a show (except for October 29). Also, by that tour every show was recorded - it seems very unlikely for an NYC show then to slip through the cracks. On top of which, Lennon's son was born in October 1975, making it pretty odd for Lennon to be hitting the clubs shortly afterwards. So I think Jackson carelessly mistook the spring '75 Northeast tour for the fall one.<br /><br />We have four different accounts of the meeting from the Garcia band members. <br />One was from Merl, as quoted above. It continues: <br />"When we went into the dressing room John Lennon was sitting there. We were shocked. He came to thank us for doing his number Imagine on my album Heavy Turbulence. I had done the first cover version of his song."<br /><br />And, from Jackson's Garcia bio, Martin Fierro: <br />"He came backstage and Jerry introduced him to us and I couldn't speak. My voice left me. He was one of my biggest heroes and I couldn't talk. I was like a drugstore Indian. Then he came back with us to the hotel in the limo. No guards, no Yoko, just him. And he partied with us for a while."<br /><br />And John Kahn: <br />"Lennon was sort of in disguise, and he was with this really weird guy I didn't know. I heard from Richard Loren that Lennon asked if there was a guitar there that was louder than Garcia's. He wanted to sit in. Well, that got back to Jerry, and Jerry said, 'No, fuck him.' Later, Lennon came down to the dressing room and was there for a long time, a couple of hours. He was real drunk and was a little belligerent. He kept referring to Jerry as J.C., which I took to mean Jesus Christ, like making fun of Jerry. That night Lennon ended up with the Hell's Angels, and we had a particularly sleazy, motley group of Hell's Angels with us." <br /><br />And finally, Jerry himself, as he told to Justin Kreutzmann: <br />"Before a Jerry Garcia Band show, in New York, John Lennon came by to thank him. Lennon told Jerry that his version of 'Imagine' was the first time someone had covered one of John's solo tunes.<br />After the show they talked for a while and Jerry invited John to come back the next night to join him on stage. John said he would return the following day and do a sound check with the Garcia Band so they could work up a few tunes. Lennon never came back and Garcia thought that all the imposing Hell's Angels hanging out backstage might have 'scared him off.'" <br />http://blogcritics.org/music/article/john-lennon-meets-jerry-garcia/Light Into Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06943335142002007213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-70268625791500923172011-12-05T16:49:06.462-07:002011-12-05T16:49:06.462-07:00There's this quote from Merl in Oliver Trager&...There's this quote from Merl in Oliver Trager's American Book of the Dead (p 240; it's on google books): "I never will forget when we played the Bottom Line in the spring of 1975. We did three shows in three days, and the place was jam packed. We were playing and the audience was just freaking out, and all of a sudden we hear all the noise stop. We hear an 'oooh,' and we see a flash go by into the dressing room. We look at each other because we didn't know who went in there When we went into the dressing room John Lennon was sitting there."<br /><br />It's problematic, since the lostlivedead post on the July 74 Bottom Line shows says that's when Lennon dropped by (and, if Kahn's description of Lennon's drunken behavior in BJ's book is accurate, then July 74 makes more sense given that it was right in the middle of Lennon's "lost weekend" period), so perhaps Merl is mistaken about the date. If Merl is correct, though, it does give some sense of how many people were in the club for these shows.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11628132999021385676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-79011460823745282542011-12-01T22:13:11.342-07:002011-12-01T22:13:11.342-07:00sraile to the white courtesy telephone, please ......sraile to the white courtesy telephone, please ...<br /><br />(Frank, a sometimes-commenter on this blog is the most expert person on this question ... let's try to get sraile's reply. Thank you for posting!)Fate Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05648291938690043423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-21388908191529985852011-11-29T21:55:02.256-07:002011-11-29T21:55:02.256-07:00Hello!
Having some confusion, and I bring it up he...Hello!<br />Having some confusion, and I bring it up here because of the Bottom Line connecton...<br /><br />I had always assumed these April '75 shows at the Bottom Line to be where/when Jerry met one of his legends, John Lennon. However, it seems there are some discrepancies. The Jerry site mentions the July 1974 shows at the Bottom line as being when this meeting occurred. However the Blair Jackson book "Garcia: An American Life" states that the meeting took place at the Bottom Line during the Fall of 1975. LOM did not play that venue during their fall tour that year - only the spring tour (April 8-10th as mentioned in this blog post). Perhaps this was just a typo on Blair's part? In either case - which is it? July 1974 at the Bottom Line, April 1975 at the Bottom Line, or at a previously undocumented Fall 1975 show at the Bottom Line?Franknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-2648845550008108932011-11-26T17:00:19.610-07:002011-11-26T17:00:19.610-07:00excellent reading, as always. thanks!
random note...excellent reading, as always. thanks!<br /><br />random note: i think it's one one of these bottom line recordings that you can hear a member of the audience going "dinsdale, dinsdale", like in the monty python sketch.<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLz07TaTDEAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18366371.post-57478639990036065772011-11-26T08:12:27.498-07:002011-11-26T08:12:27.498-07:00I think "Wicked Messenger" was just modi...I think "Wicked Messenger" was just modified by Garcia's usual choice of tempo. However, there was a sort of precedent on the first album by the Rod Stewart/Ron Wood Faces, called First Step. The first track on the album, released in early 1970, was a slow, bluesy version of "Wicked Messenger." I doubt it was the source of Garcia's arrangement, but the idea was in the air.Corry342https://www.blogger.com/profile/08049035074121231425noreply@blogger.com